That Alec Reid Thing
That storm the other week about Fr. Alec Reid’s ‘Nazi’ comments - has it died down yet?
I didn’t comment on it at the time for two reasons:
- I didn’t know how I felt about the outburst, and
- I didn’t want to get swept up in the wave of knee-jerk commentary and condemnation
Pastor of Muppets (cool name) was apparently at the meeting, and claims that Fr. Reid didn’t call Unionists Nazis: he said that there were parallels between Northern Ireland under Unionist rule and Germany between 1933 to 1945
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I’m not excusing Alec Reid’s comments. However, as I understand it the situation was akin to an Anti-Agreement ambush and I think it’s possible he was railroaded by certain members of the audience. POM describes the situation as the usual people with the all-to-familiar bickering points and public displays of blunt rudeness towards the speakers
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Faux Outrage
Now, I’ll tackle those comments in a minute. First I’d like to talk about Willie Frazer of victims group FAIR. A commentator described the mood following this meeting as ‘faux outrage’, and I think this is as good an assessment as any.
The whole thing looked stage managed to me. Deliberate provocation, Reid gives them a golden sound byte, Frazer takes said sound byte entirely out of context and becomes infuriated, causing a storm by walking out of the meeting early. Perhaps to get a head start with the assembled media?
A couple of days later Frazer announced to the world that he was reporting Fr. Reid to the police for inciting hatred. Thus the commencement of a long-running saga that will no doubt ensure plentiful press for Willie Frazer and fresh things for us all to be divided over.
Perhaps I’m demonising Mr. Frazer, but I feel he has not been even-handed in dealing with this situation. If the PSNI are considering charges against Fr. Reid, then perhaps none of us are safe, perhaps we all should watch what we say. Perhaps most of our politicians should be expecting knocks on their doors too for their part in inciting sectarian hatred.
The Nazi Comments
First off, totally inappropriate. I agree. But an opinion nonetheless.
Fr. Reid is not the spokesman for Nationalism. His opinions are his own, just as The Levee Breaks is the collected opinion of me and my co-authors here. Why should the entire Unionist community take umbrage, particularly when the period referred to is so long ago?
Not to round on Willie Frazer again, but wouldn’t a much better approach have been to ask him why he held those opinions? What had led Fr. Reid to such a drastic conclusion? Did other people think this or feel this? Was there any justification for the statement?
So, although I was shocked like many others with these comments, when I took the time to let the whole story emerge I found that it wasn’t as bad as the initial report (at one point, I heard a contortion of the story that implied Reid was referring to all Protestants). I found myself wanting to find out the basis for his claims. Any Unionist reading this should too - and here’s why: The Nationalist and Unionist ideologies are essentially inward looking and exclusive. Whatever side of the fence you sit, you’ll be more concerned with ‘our’ pain than ‘their’ pain.
So Unionists (in particular this time) should take the time to try and understand their neighbours. Buck the DUP/Willie Frazer trend and ask, “Is there something in this? Are we even trying to understand Nationalists?” If the Unionist ‘regime’ prior to 1968 was so bad, why should the Unionists of today be up in arms about it? Instead of shouting someone down for a change, perhaps take the time to listen to an alternative point of view. Listen to what’s being said and take it on board. Ask questions and find out more.
Outrage is great fun, but it achieves nothing in the end. Instead of persuing this legal action, Willie Frazer should sit down with Alec Reid and talk the issue through.
As a member of a victim’s group, Willie Frazer needs to show some responsibility and maturity. Cheap media stunts are not a way forward, and I hope he takes this on board.
“So Unionists (in particular this time) should take the time to try and understand their neighbours. Buck the DUP/Willie Frazer trend and ask, ?Is there something in this? Are we even trying to understand Nationalists?? If the Unionist ?regime? prior to 1968 was so bad, why should the Unionists of today be up in arms about it?”
You see that is all fine and dandy, and we could discuss the pros and cons of the Stormont regime all night.(I’m too young to remember it) The problem is this:
There is a propaganda war going on here and now. In fact it is intensifying.
Republicans have (largely) given up on their ‘long war’ or ‘armed struggle’. they (PIRA)did not achieve what they set out to achieve ie 32 county all Ireland Socialist Republic. Therefore they have to justify the horrendous waste of life over the past 35 years by legitimising themselves and their campaign. Why was there an IRA- well it was because of those Nazi like, white supremist, unionists who treated us like the Jews in 30s Germany or Blacks in Mississippi, so we fought back out of self defence. Oh yes lets throw in a few anti catholic Paisely quotes (forgetting that the Unionist PM in 1969 was Terence O’Neill who had been addressing what grievances the Civil Rights Association had at that time) Also throw in Craig’s Protestant Parliament quote, forgetting that this was a direct responce to Dev’s Catholic country comment.
Have a look at P O’Neill’s statements - in every one they reaffirm that their campaign was legitimate and righteous. There is never any remorse, regret or apology. Then witness Adams and co striding the world stage as statesmen and peacemakers and understand that the indignation of ordinary unionists is real. One minute SF are denounced as criminal conspirators post Northern Bank/ McCartney, the next heroic savious of the peace process -and give them back their allowances.
The DUP’s electoral triumph over the UUs recently basically boils down to one thing- a protest over how the provos seem to have gotten away quite literally with murder. They were saying to Tony Blair and co, right we elected moderates Trimble, he played ball, worked the peace process and you shafted him. Right heres Paisley that’ll piss you right off) It was a stupid thing to do mind you but voters here aren’t good at thinking strategically. It was an emotional reaction.
I’m going off on a tangent, but the point is this you can’t expect unionists to seriously and honestly examine the deficiencies of the NI government 21- 72 when other people, even apparently Peace making Priests use it as a way of legitimising a 30 year sectarian terror campaign
Exactly, Mr. Levee. I couldn’t have put it better myself.
Fair enough if Mr. Frazer wants to pursue the victims’ agenda- that’s his right. But when debacles like this happen it not only damages his campaign for victims’ rights, but turns attention away from the suffering of victims, instead creating a media circus with no tangible benefit to anyone.
My advice to Mr. Frazer would be to a) try a more even-handed approach to campaigning, instead of creating the myth that only protestants were victims, and b) not get involved in amateur dramatics, as it only lessens the effect of any victims’ campaigns and creates more friction between the communities, something which will make peace and reconciliation more difficult.
Andy: I don’t know if you’re a regular here, but I was sort of hoping to avoid the tired old Nationalist v Unionist grudge match. You will usually find me to be quite balanced on Northern Irish matters.
However, in this instance I firmly believe that instead of taking the usual knee-jerk reaction (a la Frazer), there was room here for a Unionist to attempt to understand the Nationalist mindset. Why does it always have to be about conflict? Like you, I popped into the world after all this started. I didn’t choose this conflict.
I totally disagree with you on the subject of the DUP, by the way. They have risen to prominence on the strength of scaremongering the Unionist population. I have never heard anyone try to argue the positive aspects of what they have done for Northern Ireland. Concessions are rubbish - they benefit political parties, not real people. Sinn Fein (and their ex-prisoner colleagues) have benefitted from concessions. Do not be fooled for a minute that people in Nationalist areas are better off for SF concessions!
El Mat: See next comment!
We’re singing from the same hymnsheet El Mat.
While I respect Alec Reid for getting involved in decommissioning, I do disagree with many of his views. The comments about the IRA not being involved in criminality were just ridiculous!
Having said that, it was below the belt to ambush the man like that and provoke a conflict. Worse for Frazer in my opinion that he didn’t accept the apology…
Levee - the quote I read from the Belfast Telegraph the following day was:
“The nationalist community in Northern Ireland were treated like animals by the unionist community. They were not treated like human beings. It was like the Nazis’ treatment of the Jews.”
Slightly worse, IMHO, than the one you used in your post and a disgrace. I have no prior knowledge of Fr Reid so won’t condemn him out of hand (since he apologised) but his the IRA weren’t criminals viewpoint will harm any chance there ever was of me treating any future statements from the man with any credibility whatsoever.
Re: the DUP, I think I agree with both of you!
I won’t argue with you on the quote, beano. That is simply what Pastor of Muppets said on his blog.
However, my question remains - what events shaped Reid’s opinion on this? I would have liked to hear his reasoning on the matter, if nothing else. Now that Frazer has drowned him out, we’ll probably never get the full story.
Brilliant assessment, Levee. BU.
Mr L,
I think you have misunderstood my comments re the DUP. I was going off on a tangent and possibly did not express myself clearly. I think the DUP are a joke and that Paisley is a bigger threat to the union that the IRA- to paraphrase J Donaldson’s poliical hero JE Powell. But the amount of reasonable, non religious nutcase type people (who also basically think they are a joke)who voted for them in May was frightening. The way it has been expressed to me by my mates is that it was a protest - to tell SF to basically p**s away off, especially after Northern Bank/ McCartney murder/ Colombia 3 . As I said it was an emotional and basically stupid reaction.
Sorry If I did not express this clearly but the point I was making is that there is understandably an extreme reluctance at present amongst unionists to seriously and honestly re examine the history of NI pre 72. The reason is that any admission that things were not as they should have been under Stormont -(Which the majority of unionist will admit eg in Timble’s Nobel speech “Ulster Unionists, fearful of being isolated on the island, built a solid house, but it was a cold house for Catholics.” http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/nobeldt.htm)-will be used, and re used in this ‘post conflict’ Period by provos to legitimate their completely illegitimate terrorist campaign.
They cant go on about ‘the armed struggle’ being a just war against British Imperialism, and freeing their country from a colonial oppressor, because they patently failed on these term to achieve their objectives. Therefore it was the Huns fault-they caused the conflict, they are the White South Africans, the Israelis, the Ku Klux Klan, the Nazis, and therefore (in code) they deserved to be shot and blown to pieces.
I’ll post a second hand account of the Fitzroy episode below BTW
I found out that some people I knew were at the Fitzroy Meeting. On the following Monday morning I rang them to find out what had occurred.
These people are very liberal Presbyterians who would be involved in inter church groups and generally ecumenical happy clappies who would be very pro power sharing/ pro Agreement.
From the reports and accounts I read over the weekend following the incident in the media, and given their well established moderate credentials I expected that they would concur that Fr Reid had been goaded/ insulted by Willie Frazer, and yer man Albert (who is a well known DUP agitor who always phones Talkback and used to heckle & berate Trimble/McGimpsey etc on Lets talk/Spotlight).
However their first hand account was that nothing, repeat nothing had been said prior to Reid’s Nazi outburst which would have provoked him to say what he said.
From the off he appeared aggressive, defensive and on a mission to tell people the way it was, as far as he was concerned. (BBC Radio Ulster’s Sunday Sequence programme with William Crawley also confirms this) He said the Frazer ?You come from a community that ought to be ashamed of itself? before making the Nazi comparison. So no matter how much you analyze or revise it, he was condemning the entire Protestant/ unionist side of the community- not the unionist government at Stormont or a unionist controlled Council west of the bann in the fifties
Frazer’s predictable reaction and walkout apparently let him off the hook, because he was hanging himself with every word he spoke. My friends say they were genuinely shocked by his comments and overall display of hatred sectarian hatred. They were at the meeting hoping to be reassured re decommissioning and left completed deflated and disillusioned
Andy - I wonder what your thoughts are then on the version of events I linked to in my post? They appear to be at odds. Are you saying that Willie Frazer wasn’t antagonising matters?
Anyway, I have to go on record here and say that I believe Fr. Reid is of a Republican persuasion. Certainly the company he keeps would imply that anyway.
Republicans in general don’t impress me much. They strike me as a deluded bunch, more a brainwashed ‘borg’ collective than a group of intelligent, reasonable people sharing a political motivation. That said, there’s a powerful prejudice at work here, and I for one would like to understand the cause of it all!
I’m saying that having read the reports, saw the TV clips via UTV internet and digested the post event comments I was prepared to believe that Fr Reid was probably goaded by Willie Frazer. I thought this even more likely when I recognised the bloke he was siting next as a well known ’slabber’ as we say in Norn Iron.
However the people I know who were at Fitzroy (as I say Liberal ecumenical pro Agreement) told me that this was not the case. I asked them whether comments had been made impuning Clonard Monastry or the RC Church by WF or anyone else before the statement about nationalists being treated like animals, and they said emphatically no.
They say he set out on a deliberate path to demonise unionists in general. If Frazer had not caused a scene and walked out , who knows what he would have gone on to say.
All the other clergy present were apparently mortified at Reid’s belligerent attitude including Fr Reynolds who said a closing prayer.
This is as i say a second hand account, but I feel worth juxaposing with Paster of Muppet’s account. That is why I am commenting, not to get into a themmuns and usyins argument.
Andy: Thanks for all your follow-up comments on this thread. I know it’s a second hand account, but I feel better getting more information on the situation from sources other than the mainstream.
If I may say one final thing - not denegrating your account - but I cannot understand why Reid would walk into a hall full of Protestants/Unionists and start to stir up tensions when he was in the minority. Plus he had the added responsibility of being a spokesperson for decommissioning.
Why would he disgrace the whole thing with those comments? Like so many things in Northern Irish culture, I just don’t understand.
I share you baffle-ment to an extent Mr L, but listen to last week’s Radio Ulster Sunday Sequence programme and the presenter mentions Fr Reid’s aggressive demenour…http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/religion/sundaysequence/
“He was briselling” I think was the comment.
I’m not near a PC tomorrow, but if I think of anything else I’ll come back to you.
ATB
I posted something last week, along the lines that this kind of outburst is actually healthy. Fr Reid along with President McAleese before him were merely stating what many Irish nationalists feel about their Unionist neigbours.
I don’t like it and feel they’re wrong, but it’s much better that we have opinions like this out in the open. Everybody at least then knows where they stand and true peace can only be built on people being honest with each other, regardless of how hurtful it may be initially.
You could be right Paul, but at the same time the people spouting the hatred must be open to challenge. For example someone could have asked Fr Reid to explain how bias in the electoral systems and in public sector recruitment amounts to something equivalent to the extermination of apprx 6 million people.
If you look at http://www.victims.org.uk/nazi.html you can read Willie Frazer doing exactly the same to nationalists and the entire southern state, claiming that the Irish flag and the swastika are “one and the same cause”. Frazer has one brass neck seeking to sue Reid for incitement to hatred when he is doing exactly the same himself! And I did laugh at how Frazer tried to link Eoin O’Duffy and De Valera together as “proof” of the south’s nazi sympathies when in reality the two hated each other’s guts….
[...] In my last post I shared my concerns over Willie Frazer’s part in the Alec Reid controversy. In that post, someone left a comment about Frazer’s hypocrisy, given that the FAIR website draws links between Irish Republicanism and Nazis, so I decided to investigate further. The bit that jumped out at me was the line: We are a non-sectarian,non-political organisation working for the interests of the innocent of terrorist victims based in South Armagh,Northern Ireland. [...]
Actually the unionists (otherwise known as the British colonists) were worse than Nazis. For the Nazis to have been worse, they would have had to oppress the Jews in Israel. For all their faults, the Nazis never invaded Israel and never had a colony there. The British invaded Ireland and established a colony there and oppressed the indigenous Irish Catholic population.